391: The Overlooked Gifts of Visual Thinkers with Temple Grandin
“They used to say, oh, stupid kids [go to] shop classes … and let me tell you, it’s not stupidity. It is a totally different kind of intelligence. And it’s the kind of intelligence that’s absolutely needed to keep infrastructure going and to build new infrastructure.”
This week we’re joined by returning guest, animal behavior scientist, and autism rights advocate Temple Grandin to talk about her latest book Visual Thinking: The Hidden Gifts of People Who Think in Pictures, Patterns, and Abstractions.
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[This transcript was produced by a computer and may contain errors.]
Indre Viskontas:
You and Betty and the Nancies and Bills and Joes and Janes will find in the study of science a richer, more rewarding life.
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Indre Viskontas:
Hey, welcome to Inquiring Minds. I'm Indre Viskontas. This is a podcast that explores the space where science and society collide. We want to find out what's true, what's left to discover, and why it matters. This week, we get to talk to Temple Grandin. She's a pioneer in our understanding of how autistic minds work, and in particular, visual thinking. She has also made a huge impact in improving the welfare of farm animals, which she attributes to the way she thinks. She's a professor of animal science at Colorado State University, and her previous bestselling books include Animals in Translation, The Autistic Brain, and Thinking in Pictures. Thinking in Pictures, by the way, if you haven't seen it, was made into an HBO movie starring Claire Danes. Her new book, Visual Thinking, builds on several decades of research that she did, both in terms of surveying the literature and talking to thousands of people who think in pictures, to better understand this underappreciated way in which some of our minds work. Temple Grandin, welcome to Inquiring Minds.
Temple Grandin:
Great to be here.
Indre Viskontas:
It's such a pleasure for me to read your book on visual thinking, because although you have written about this idea many years ago, I felt like this time I got a much better understanding of the entire spectrum of ways of thinking visually. And I really want to say that it's remarkable, the work that you've done over the last few years, to sort of really understand more deeply not just your own thinking, but other people who also think in pictures.
Temple Grandin:
One of the reasons for doing this book is I'm very concerned about skill loss. And in the first part of the book, I wrote about a trip I did in 2019, right before COVID shut everything down. I went to four places, and I found that there's equipment we're not making anymore. Two state-of-the-art pork processing plants, state-of-the-art poultry processing plant, and the Steve Jobs Theater. And the food processing plant equipment, most of it all came from Holland in 100 shipping containers at one of the plants. And what I realized is we're paying the price for taking out shop classes 20 years ago. It's a serious problem with skill loss.
Indre Viskontas:
Yeah, and for those students whose minds don't gravitate easily to the traditional teaching methods that rely so heavily on language. So let's start with telling our listeners, what do we know about visual thinking and how it works? Can you describe it for us?
Temple Grandin:
Well, in the book, Visual Thinking, I discuss some of the research, and I went over a lot of research. The research shows that there definitely are two types of visualization. There's the object visualizer like me, who thinks in photo-realistic pictures, has a terrible time with things like algebra. We're good at things like working with animals, art, and mechanics, and also photography. Then you have the visual spatial, who thinks in patterns. This is your mathematician, your chemist, your musician, and computer programmer. And they're actually kind of two opposite kinds of visual thinking. You won't find an extreme object visualizer and an extreme mathematician in the same person. And lots of people are mixtures. And then, of course, the third type of thinking is verbal thinking in words.
Indre Viskontas:
So I just want to say that that was kind of a revelation to me that you could have a visual thinker who wasn't good at algebra. Because to me, I always put visual and spatial thinking in the same bucket.
Temple Grandin:
That's wrong.
Indre Viskontas:
Yeah, and it was really helpful for me to know that.
Temple Grandin:
That is wrong. And unfortunately, a lot of the research studies have mixed them together. And the magic term you need to be using when you search for the stuff online is object visualizer. Because that's different from the mathematical. Because the mathematical is more of thinking in patterns. Like, I'm not very good at chess, because that's more thinking purely in patterns. There are two different things. One is thinking in patterns. The other is thinking in pictures. And I've designed a lot of equipment for the cattle industry. And I worked with a lot of brilliant machinery designers that also can't do algebra. But they'd taken a welding class in high school. And they have big metal fabrication shops. But the problem is the people I worked with are all retiring. I'm 75 now. So the people I worked with are all retiring. They're not getting replaced. Big skill loss issue. And I didn't realize how bad it was until I went to the poultry plants, the pork plants, and the Steve Jobs Theater. Now, beef, we actually still know how to build the plant. But the people are getting old. Are they going to get replaced? And there's a connection here with education. Because the kids that ought to be building infrastructure, for example, waterworks, power plants, they're getting shunted into special ed. They're growing up and they've never been exposed to tools. I was using tools by the time I was in second grade.
Indre Viskontas:
You know, one of the things that it reminded me of is this other way of thinking about or characterizing people's visual imagination. So I don't know how aware you are of this recent research on the fact that some people, I mean, it's related to visual thinking. But some people can't imagine in their mind's eye something as simple as a sphere. And they can even work in highly visual settings. Like one person I'm thinking of is Ed Catmull, who co-founded the animation studio Pixar and then led Disney Animation for a long time. And he does not have a visual imagination in that way. But there are people, animators that he worked with, that would only need to see a movie once because they could remember frame by frame. They sound like object visualizers, as you're describing.
Temple Grandin:
Well, it also is getting into autism savant skills, which I'm not. I don't remember a movie frame by frame.
Indre Viskontas:
Yeah. And so there's this spectrum of people, too, who not only maybe can see visually, but can remember everything they've seen.
Temple Grandin:
Well, I can't remember everything I've seen. I don't remember every hotel room I've been in. I'm in a hotel room right now. Maybe I'll remember it because we've talked about it. I'll remember that thing in the background. But I don't care about hotel rooms. I'll remember the really awful ones and the really weird ones, those I do remember, something where it attracted my attention. But hotel rooms are pretty low on my list of interesting things. So most of them are not going to be remembered because I don't care about hotel rooms.
Indre Viskontas:
And that seems like a very useful thing to forget is all the hotel rooms that all seem the same. There, in your book, you have a visual spatial identifier quiz that people can take to sort of see where they might fall in the spectrum of visual thinking. And I found it really interesting. Some of the questions on it, I thought I would ask you how you would answer them because I thought this was, some of the, some of them are more like what you would expect. So, for example, do you think mainly in pictures instead of in words? But then there are things like, do you often lose track of time? And I wondered, like, what does that have to do with visual thinking, your sense of time?
Temple Grandin:
Well, I actually am pretty good on time. I ask how long the interview is, usually pretty good on timing it. Though I found on construction projects, verbal thinkers always underestimate the amount of time it takes to build something. You know, I'm always leaving extra time to go to the airport because there's a construction project on the freeway. And I had a 45 minute traffic jam because for no reason they cut it down to one lane of traffic. And I have a good sense of time because I'm visualizing, OK, it takes an hour and 15 minutes to get to the airport. But if something goes wrong, I always like to allow an extra hour for some kind of problem on the, on our interstate, which is under construction. You see, now I'm seeing a real gnarly parts of one part like curves like that. Yeah, I'm seeing it. And then they're shutting down exits at night. And I can't go around the exits because it's far enough south that I'm seeing it now. And I'm like, ugh, highway thirty four is closed. You know, I'm seeing, I'm seeing it. I'm seeing all the concrete divider things and just…
Indre Viskontas:
And then that, yeah. And then that would affect how you, you know, how much time you allot to a particular task or journey.
Temple Grandin:
Well, that's right. And then I had a way to go around the construction. But now the construction's moved and the place to go around it can be blocked.
Indre Viskontas:
So there's another one, number 13, can you feel what others are feeling? That was a surprise, too, to see it on the list.
Temple Grandin:
Well, of course, being an autistic person, I have to learn more about, you know, I know what it's like to be angry or happy, but there's a sort of like social stuff that just doesn't interest me. Where I have friends is friends through shared interests. That's where I have friends like I was on a flight and we spent an entire flight talking about concrete forming systems. And that's the kind of stuff that I find really, really interesting. See, kind of social chit chat for the sake of chit chat just isn’t very interesting. And I see people having so much fun doing it kind of almost rhythmically. And I can't even keep up with it. I'd rather talk about interesting stuff.
Indre Viskontas:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that, you know, I think I think you're not alone in that. And I do think that there are some people who I think in some ways, too, there's a, there's a variety. There are some people who really love the chit chat and there are people who, you know, just do it when they need to or not at all. But it was interesting to me to think about how that relates to being a visual thinker. But I guess the idea would be that if you enjoy that chit chat, you're more of a verbal thinker.
Temple Grandin:
Probably. You'd probably be more of a verbal thinker if you enjoy that chit chat, which I don't. The thing that amazes me about some of this chit chat is they're having such a great time and there's almost no information in the chit chat.
Indre Viskontas:
That's interesting. I mean, can you talk a little bit more about that? About what, what information do you find most interesting?
Temple Grandin:
Well, let's say I, think of an example. I remember a dinner I went to where pharmaceutical reps were kind of joking back and forth about university mascots and the color of cattle worm medicine. And it was kind of sports themed chit chat. But there was no information, you know, like the strategy of the game. That'd be information. And I was kind of amazed at the lack of information in this conversation. But they were having such a great time.
Indre Viskontas:
So interesting. So now we know sort of the two types of visual thinking. And in terms of helping people understand how visual thinking works, I wonder if you could talk a little bit about that.
Temple Grandin:
Well, everything I think about is a picture. I don't think in words. Words narrate the pictures. And now there's some stuff if I talk about it enough, I can almost get like a tape recorder download. And when I was in high school, I got bullied and teased. They used to call me tape recorder for using the same phrases. But when I'm designing equipment, as I draw a drawing of a gate, I see the gate. OK, we were talking about remembering hotel rooms. Well, now I remember one really awful hotel where my socks just got black and dirty walking on their carpet. I'm now seeing the black and dirty socks in a disgusting hotel that was near a major airport that I unfortunately stayed in.
Indre Viskontas:
And so that's how you remember that room is you have this picture of those socks.
Temple Grandin:
I have the pictures of the socks and then stuff that didn't work too in it. And broken faucets in the bathroom.
Indre Viskontas:
So, you know, one of the things that most people find is that pictures tend to be more, like they tend to make you feel angry or afraid or disgusted more easily than a verbal description. So like if you showed me the pictures of the socks, I'd probably feel more disgusted than you just telling me about them.
Temple Grandin:
Well, I would agree. I would agree with that. Like I'll read movie reviews and some movie be really violent or some other really icky thing. And I go, no, I'm not going to that one. I'll read the review. That's it. I don't need those pictures on my hard drive.
Indre Viskontas:
Yes. And so I but I made me wonder that as someone who always, you know, sees or thinks in pictures, do you think that over the course of a day you have more of these emotional reactions to the things that are going on in your mind than, say, a person who thinks verbally?
Temple Grandin:
Well, in the visual thinking book, I looked at some of the research on PTSD, post-traumatic stress syndrome, and people that tend to get post-traumatic stress syndrome, stress syndrome, think in pictures, because then they're reliving the stressful event. Or if you're a total verbal thinker, maybe it's easier to suppress it because you're not playing the video back.
Indre Viskontas:
That's right. And so you don't have the full emotional impact of that image every time you remember it.
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Indre Viskontas:
So in your book, too, you talk about what we're doing wrong in education. So let's talk a little bit about that. What, what do you, what did you find in your, in your research and in talking to people about how we're losing kids who, who are primarily visual thinkers or whose brains aren't geared towards the way they are being educated?
Temple Grandin:
Well, the worst thing I think the schools have done is taking out all the hands-on classes. When I was in elementary school and woodworking, sewing, art. I made costumes for the school play on my little toy sewing machine that actually sewed. You know, if you, if you don't get a chance to do those kind of things, you don't know whether you can be good at it. You know, I think schools need putting theater back, cooking, sewing, woodworking, welding. Of course, now you'd have 3D printing and robotics, but kids need to be doing those hands on things. And how can you find out you're good at welding if you never try it? I have people, I worked with people who built my equipment that had taken a single welding class and then owned a great big huge shop. And they're selling specialized equipment all around the world. And they can't do algebra, but they're selling and patenting specialized equipment and selling it very successfully. And there are people that are getting up in my age and they're not getting replaced because kids are growing up today, they don't use tools. They don't use rulers. They don't use scissors. One of the things we talked about in my book, Visual Thinking, is that a doctor was telling me he had a hard time training interns to sew up cuts because they never used scissors.
Indre Viskontas:
Wow, that's amazing. Do you have any sense of why it is that these things have been taken out of education?
Temple Grandin:
Well, I think it's a combination of budgets and then things like trying to improve test scores. But I worked with a lot of brilliant people that had a hard time graduating from high school. And visual thinking, the object visualizer, is a different kind of intelligence. I worked with crews that were putting up great big Cargill plants and looking at some of the complicated stuff they did with equipment and with construction that was totally visual. See, there's two parts of engineering. There's the visual sort of more industrial design part. And then there's the mathematical part and all the different meat plants I worked in, I saw a division of labor where my kind of thinker who cannot do algebra was making all the clever equipment, mechanically clever devices, and the more mathematical engineers were doing boilers, refrigeration, and make sure the snow doesn't collapse the roof.
Indre Viskontas:
It brings to mind the fact that those kinds of sort of math and engineering skills right now, you know, that fall under this umbrella of, you know, science, technology, engineering, and math, STEM, are highly valued by a lot of parents. But the kind of visual thinking that you're describing seems to me equally important in those—
Temple Grandin:
Yes, it's equally important. And we don't make the state of the art electronic chip making machine because there's a lot of that chip making machine that needs my kind of mind. And that technology actually was invented here, but the Dutch made it. Because you see, back in Holland, they don't stick their nose up at the skilled trades. A kid in ninth grade can go tech track or he can go university track. And the thing is, you need both kinds of minds. And we're losing skills for things like maintaining and building things like water systems, just repairing stuff like elevators. I've been on some pretty dicey elevators recently that were doing things like skipping floors, just real recently, because they're not being serviced.
Indre Viskontas:
And you know, there's also kind of a joy in terms of when you make something with your hands, you can see the progress step by step. And it's harder to see that in some of the other ways in which kids are educated. And so I wondered if you had to give advice to either parents or educators about like how to bring this back. What would you say?
Temple Grandin:
Well, we're going to have infrastructure that's going to fall down if we don't bring this stuff back. It's just that simple. You see, there's two parts of engineering. There's the mathematical part, which we're doing fine on. And then there's the object visualizer that doesn't do higher math part. And when I found out about the poultry processing plant in the 100 shipping containers from Holland, I'm going, we've got a problem.
Indre Viskontas:
Yeah, I mean, it's not just all the labor and the cost, but also the environmental cost of shipping hundreds of containers across the world for these plants.
Temple Grandin:
And there's a lot of equipment where that's happening. A lot of the big 3D printers are being made in Europe. They're complicated mechanical devices that are controlled by computers. A lot of them come out of Japan. I went into a shop that makes highly specialized machined equipment. And the state of the art machine tools were from Japan.
Indre Viskontas:
Yeah. I mean, you know, there are these European countries and countries in Asia like Japan where there is a real elevation of craftsmanship.
Temple Grandin:
That's right.
Indre Viskontas:
Which we don't have in the US, which is strange. I mean, in some places it's coming back. Like, you know, in San Francisco, we've got people who are kind of focusing a little bit more on making things from scratch and focusing on the details. But I think in general, across the US, it's hard to get people to pay for the extra cost that good craftsmanship demands.
Temple Grandin:
Well, you need it. And the people I worked with are retiring out.
Indre Viskontas:
Yeah
Temple Grandin:
And right now, I saw my equipment that's in the big meat plants. There's a piece of equipment called the Center Track Restrainer System. Every big beef plant has one. I worked on developing that piece of equipment. Well, cattle have gotten fatter these days. It's going to have to be widened. And the few shops that are left right now are price gouging. Big time.
Indre Viskontas:
Right. Right. So if there was more competition, in a sense, there would be a lowering of prices for that same craft.
Temple Grandin:
Well, that's right. But the problem is that most of the people I've worked with are retiring out. And the little shops are not forming. I was just out in Nebraska, went out to a big feedlot, and they can't find somebody to repair their feed mill. That's really serious. That's right now. And then, OK, let's take another piece of equipment. There's a piece of equipment called the Apollo Chicken Harvester. This thing picks up broiler chickens. It's very clever, looks like a combine, works really well. It's from Italy. And they can't get parts for it right now. Why aren't we inventing it? The chicken harvester thing, you can look it up, the Apollo Chicken Harvester. You can look the thing up online. And that's the kind of stuff that the kid who can't do algebra should be inventing. That's the problem. And when we're building these chip factories, there's all kinds of moving stuff in there, conveyors and things, that needs my kind of mind. You can say, well, the whole factory is computerized. But wait a minute. You're talking about mechanical devices controlled by a computer. Mechanical devices need my kind of mind.
Indre Viskontas:
That's right. And when they break, they need your kind of mind to fix the pieces.
Temple Grandin:
Well, and we've got problems right now. I was at the airport just the other day. I looked at four people working on an escalator, and only one was young. That's a problem. And when you take an escalator apart, you better believe it, there's conveyors inside it that look just like the stuff in meatpacking plants. It's the same kind of stuff.
Indre Viskontas:
So one other big section of your book is on collaborations. And I wondered if you could talk a little bit about some of these really successful collaborations between visual and verbal thinkers.
Temple Grandin:
Well, let's look at architects versus the engineers. Engineers do not separate form and function. So they're likely to build you a gray box. And if you want your building to look nice, you're going to need the architects. That's different kinds of minds. In working on the book, I did the rough drafts, and Betsy Lerner, my co-author, smoothed out the writing. Okay, that's a verbal mind collaborating with a visual thinking mind. You see, there's complementary skills. And I already talked about the example of the factory where things like boilers and refrigeration, that's got to be done by the mathematical engineers. And my kind of mind is out there in the clever engineering department. You know, have you ever seen those machines that make ice cream novelties?
Indre Viskontas:
Mhmm.
Temple Grandin:
That's an example of clever engineering department.
Indre Viskontas:
And then there's people like Rodgers and Hammerstein.
Temple Grandin:
That's right.
Indre Viskontas:
I hadn't thought about it that way.
Temple Grandin:
Well, you see, there's a lot of things and the skills are complementary. And I tell business people, the first step is realizing these different kinds of thinkers exist. We also need to start looking at changing some of the hiring practices because HR is going to hire the social people. But the most social person might not be your best mechanic. That's the problem.
Indre Viskontas:
So how do you, I mean, I think this is a really interesting problem of, you know, if you have a person in HR or a person, anyone who's hiring someone else, we always gravitate towards people who are more like us.
Temple Grandin:
That's right, yeah.
Indre Viskontas:
So how do you, if you're specifically looking for someone who doesn't think like you, who thinks differently, and you have a choice of three or four candidates, how do you choose which one would be the best fit? I mean, are there some sort of categories or things that you look for that tell you this visual thinker is like particularly good at what they do?
Temple Grandin:
Well, let's look at the work. The way I used to sell my cattle handling jobs is I showed off my drawings and I showed off pictures of jobs, drawings of jobs, pictures of finished jobs. In other words, I sold the work. Okay, somebody who's a programmer could show some of their programming to people that could appreciate the programming. It's not going to be HR, it's going to be the computer department. Or for me, it would have been the plant manager or the plant engineering department.
Indre Viskontas:
Yeah, so maybe in these kinds of hiring practices, you can't just leave it to HR. You have to include people from other departments.
Temple Grandin:
Exactly, exactly. It's really, really important because I just can't believe it. No one can even find any mechanics now. Electricians, huge shortage right now.
Indre Viskontas:
And that's also really good advice for people who are visual thinkers who have trouble finding jobs to really focus on showing the work, however they are able to do that, whether it's things that they've done. And it also underlines how important it is for these young kids to get the experience in school so that they have some work to show when they're going out on the job market.
Temple Grandin:
The other thing you've got to learn is to do work that other people want. Before I was designing cattle facilities, I had a little sign painting business when I was in high school. So my very first sign client was a beauty salon, and I had to make a sign a hair salon would want. You see, you've got to learn how to do the work that somebody else is going to want. And if I put flying saucers on the sign, I don't think they would have liked that very much.
Indre Viskontas:
So how did you learn to do that? Was it through conversations with the salon? Was it by giving them a lot of different options and then seeing what they pick? How did you manage it?
Temple Grandin:
Well, actually, I picked the brick shampoo lady, and I decorated the sign with her. They liked it.
Indre Viskontas:
Okay. But what if they hadn't liked it? What would have been your next step?
Temple Grandin:
Well, I would have asked them. First of all, I tried to talk to a client. [unclear] Talked to a client enough beforehand so when I designed something, they are going to like it. And I'd do a lot of sometimes rough sketches beforehand. But when I sell the job, for example, I sold Cargill, and I designed the front end of every Cargill beef plant, back in the late 80s, I sent a big two-foot by three-foot fold-out drawing to the head of Cargill, Bill Fielding, and sent him pictures of jobs and a brochure, a couple of trade magazine articles so that he'd open it up and it'd be a 30-second wow. I didn't send him a phone book worth of stuff. I sent him just stuff he could look at really quickly and see my abilities.
Indre Viskontas:
That's great. That's great advice. You also sort of in the book talk a little bit about your goals to sort of help parents guide their kids. And I had a question about this because a lot of kids who have neurodiverse brains, whether they're autistic or they have ADHD or they have some other way in which their brain is different, sometimes a portion of these kids also have low frustration tolerance. They get frustrated very quickly. And that's a hard thing if you're trying to learn a skill. And I wondered if you had some advice to either parents or teachers or even the kids themselves about dealing with frustration when you can't immediately do the thing that you want to do.
Temple Grandin:
Yeah, and I had some issues like that. I remember getting mad at some pieces of plexiglass I was trying to cut. And that did not help the situation any. Now, I didn't have that problem with drawing. And most of the work I did in the livestock industry was with drawings. I kind of figured out how to put the metalworking shop into my head. And then I would just erase it if I did it wrong. Another problem with some of these kids is they'll throw away work that they consider not perfect.
Indre Viskontas:
Right, yeah.
Temple Grandin:
And the thing I had to learn is it had to be really high standard. It could never be completely perfect.
Indre Viskontas:
And how did you learn that? Do you have a sense of was it just over time people encouraging you or was it something that came from you yourself that you just accepted that it wasn't going to be perfect? How did that happen?
Temple Grandin:
Well, I sort of thought of things in physics like absolute zero. Absolute zero is when all atomic motion stops. You can approach it, but you can't get there.
Indre Viskontas:
Yeah, that's a really great analogy, is that it'll never be absolute zero.
Temple Grandin:
You can never get to absolute zero. You see, I thought about that. But I've got to be to a really high standard. It's just like working on some of my animal welfare stuff. I figured out really simple ways to evaluate animal welfare. Let's take lameness in dairy cows. That can never be zero, but it needs to be at a very low level.
Indre Viskontas:
So if there's a person who is listening now that wants to learn more about their own ways of thinking, I think one of the things that's remarkable about you, Temple, is that over the many decades you've really learned how your own mind works. And for a lot of us, it's still a mystery how our own minds work. And so I wondered if you could tell people what, how did you discover that and what are some of the things that they can do to get a better sense of how their own minds work?
Temple Grandin:
Well, I think reading my book, Visual Thinking, will help. They might also want to read my older book, Thinking in Pictures, because I've had parents come to me and say that that book helped them to understand how their child thinks. You see, I think I was in my late 30s when I discovered that different people think differently. I didn't know that. Let's just look at another example of collaboration. I'm kind of an associative thinker. Take Steve Jobs, probably on the spectrum. He was an artist. He designed the interface on the cell phone to make it easy to use. The engineers and the mathematicians had to make it work. So that's a visual thinker making the interface, mathematicians making it work.
Indre Viskontas:
Yeah, and I think that a lot of times, I mean, I think we all recognize Steve Jobs as being a genius in what he did, but a lot of times the person who has that visual side is in our society considered lesser than or...
Temple Grandin:
Well, it's a different kind of intelligence. You see, this is the thing, because I used to say, oh, stupid kids go shop classes. Well, I'm sorry, I worked in too many big meat factories with too many super skilled people. Let me tell you, it's not stupidity. It is a totally different kind of intelligence. And it's the kind of intelligence that's absolutely needed to keep infrastructure going and to build new infrastructure.
Indre Viskontas:
So I want to remind our listeners that Temple's new book, Visual Thinking: The Hidden Gifts of People Who Think in Pictures, Patterns and Abstractions, is now available at booksellers everywhere. And I just want to also give credit to your co-author, Betsy Lerner, who's also involved in the book, and another example of a great collaboration.
Temple Grandin:
That's right.
Indre Viskontas:
Temple, thank you so much for being on Inquiring Minds, and it was such a pleasure to talk to you and to learn more about how you think and what we can do to make society better.
Temple Grandin:
It was great to be on your show.
Indre Viskontas:
So that's it for another episode. Thanks for listening. And if you want to hear more, don't forget to subscribe. If you'd like to get an ad-free version of the show, consider supporting us at patreon.com/inquiringminds. I want to especially thank David Noel, Herring Cheng, Sean Johnson, Jordan Miller, Kyle Rihala, Michael Galgul, Eric Clarke, Yuxi Lin, Clark Lindgren, Joelle, Stefan Meier-Awald, Dale LaMaster, and Charles Blyle. Inquiring Minds is produced by Adam Isaak, and I'm your host, Indre Viskontas. See you next time.